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On the subject of weapons

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Post  Slotha Sil Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:47 am

How do we treat dodge, armor defense and DR when someone sneaks up to you? It suddenly struck me that a two-handed sledgehammer would be the best backstabber weapon in the game.

On the other hand, no reason not to. Dagger was a popular surprise murder weapon because it was stealthy, not because it was inherently better at hitting weak spots.
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Post  GLIPP Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:20 pm

Slotha Sil wrote:How do we treat dodge, armor defense and DR when someone sneaks up to you? It suddenly struck me that a two-handed sledgehammer would be the best backstabber weapon in the game.

On the other hand, no reason not to. Dagger was a popular surprise murder weapon because it was stealthy, not because it was inherently better at hitting weak spots.

Also, to prevent that glaring weak point from seeing late game abuse we can give a skill perk for light armor/unarmored 75 that acts as a sort of uncanny dodge type deal.

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Post  Rainbay Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:33 pm

Slotha Sil wrote:How do we treat dodge, armor defense and DR when someone sneaks up to you? It suddenly struck me that a two-handed sledgehammer would be the best backstabber weapon in the game.

On the other hand, no reason not to. Dagger was a popular surprise murder weapon because it was stealthy, not because it was inherently better at hitting weak spots.

But stealthy is important if you are trying to catch someone unaware. Perhaps we could counter the higher damage of a huge warhammer by having it have a negative to backstab chances, while a small and light dagger would have a bonus to backstabbing?

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Post  Slotha Sil Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:45 pm

Rainbay wrote:

But stealthy is important if you are trying to catch someone unaware. Perhaps we could counter the higher damage of a huge warhammer by having it have a negative to backstab chances, while a small and light dagger would have a bonus to backstabbing?

Stealth is an agility skill right? Maybe you can only do agility (and speed) related actions without penalty. Swinging 20 kilos of solidified demons can't exactly be done swiftly and silently, slitting a throat or shooting a short bow can.
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Post  Outlander Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:28 pm

Slotha Sil wrote:Swinging 20 kilos of solidified demons can't exactly be done swiftly and silently.

Only if the demons are screaming all the time, and for no good reason.

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Post  Rainbay Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:34 pm

They are demons, do they need more reason than that?
The Daedric warhammer is actually more to the tune of 43.5 kilos, with an ingame weight of 96, which I'm assuming is Lb. Perhaps that could be swung silently, but swiftly and without the target noticing? And on top of that, aim accuratly for the proper backstab attack?

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Post  Outlander Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:13 pm

Rainbay wrote:They are demons, do they need more reason than that?
The Daedric warhammer is actually more to the tune of 43.5 kilos, with an ingame weight of 96, which I'm assuming is Lb. Perhaps that could be swung silently, but swiftly and without the target noticing? And on top of that, aim accuratly for the proper backstab attack?

Keep in mind that those are encombrance values, not weight. That's also taking into account how awkward the thing is to carry and/or arrange in a bag.

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Post  Rainbay Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:18 pm

But encomberance effects you whether or not it is in the bag or your hands. So it being difficult to handle in your hands would be even worse than it weighing alot, since then it would be difficult to aim!

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Post  Outlander Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:45 pm

Rainbay wrote:But encomberance effects you whether or not it is in the bag or your hands. So it being difficult to handle in your hands would be even worse than it weighing alot, since then it would be difficult to aim!

Touche. I think the point I was trying to get at, however, was that Bethesda gave everything encumbrance values assuming you're trying to jam everything up your ass instead of wear or use it. Sure that 50 pound suit of plate feels like 120 when it's crammed into your colon, but when you're wearing it it really feels more like 5-10 due to weight distribution, which is something Bethesda never took into account. Same goes for hammers. It feels much lighter when it's in your hands and you're in a combat stance, and it's certainly much easier to move about than when it's rattling about your large intestine.

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Post  Slotha Sil Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:19 am

Especially with all those spikes and claws.
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Post  Rainbay Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:26 am

Interesting point, but how is that going to be shown in the game? We can't just make heavy armor barely weigh anything when worn, otherwise there is little reason to go with lighter armors and weapons.

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Post  Slotha Sil Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:10 pm

Don't forget that light armor will be lighter when worn as well. Also, speed penalty, due to armor or encumbrance or either. Also dodge penalty. Heavy armor is only better than light armor if your can afford to be slow and get hit often. People who need to move fast and aren't exactly founts of endurance will not go for pants of demon and ebony.
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Post  Rainbay Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:19 pm

I'm just worried if we do a percentage rate, say, 50% lighter when worn, that it affect a 100 pound daedric cuirass a bit more than a 10 pound glass cuirass. Part of having heavy armor is not being able to carry as much as a lightly armored thief.

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Post  Slotha Sil Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:50 pm

That daedric cuirass is still going to be heavier than a whole suit of glass. And you seem to assume that everyone'll have strength of 100. 100, 150 pounds of encumbrance is going to be a big deal for nearly all characters, especially if we introduce penalties for being loaded over a certain percentage.
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Post  Rainbay Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:40 pm

Slotha Sil wrote:That daedric cuirass is still going to be heavier than a whole suit of glass. And you seem to assume that everyone'll have strength of 100. 100, 150 pounds of encumbrance is going to be a big deal for nearly all characters, especially if we introduce penalties for being loaded over a certain percentage.

Of course, of course... it was silly of me to be thinking like everyone would have 100 strength and not be affected until 500 encumberance. Yes, that does sound good.
So do people think we should make things simple and just half the encumbrance of equiptment you are using?
Or perhaps we could use that as a skill perk, similar to what oblivion does, killing two birds with one stone?

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Post  Slotha Sil Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:00 pm

Half is fine and easy.

Oblivion has encumbrance as a skill?
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Post  Rainbay Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:04 pm

Slotha Sil wrote:Half is fine and easy.

Oblivion has encumbrance as a skill?

It had heavy and light armor skills. At certain perk levels, some of the perks were the armor you were wearing was less encumbering.

We could do a similar system, I think.

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Post  Slotha Sil Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:15 pm

Hm, that's cute. And keeping in touch with the fluff. If you break Heavy Armor skill enough, you can get faster and more agile than you would be naked, just like that guy from the book.
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Post  Rainbay Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:39 pm

Speaking of armors and such, I have a question that occured to me. Are we going to allow Argonians and Kahjiit to wear boots and helmets? In Morrowind they could only were open face helmets and no footware at all. This was always sort of a pain, especially because you couldn't use the Boots of Munchkin Awesomeness Blinding speed. Not that we'll include that item in this game, but the question still stands since it would be a major disadvantage for the two races.

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Post  Slotha Sil Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:50 pm

Rainbay wrote:Speaking of armors and such, I have a question that occured to me. Are we going to allow Argonians and Kahjiit to wear boots and helmets? In Morrowind they could only were open face helmets and no footware at all. This was always sort of a pain, especially because you couldn't use the Boots of Munchkin Awesomeness Blinding speed. Not that we'll include that item in this game, but the question still stands since it would be a major disadvantage for the two races.

Why wouldn't they make armor they can wear? They'd have problems with standradized human/mer gear, but nothing stops them from making armor that suits their abberant, inhuman physionomies.
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Post  Rainbay Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:04 pm

Good idea. Perhaps we could just allow them to use the armorer skill to make alterations on armor that they normally wouldn't be able to use? It helps fit the lore of the game that way as well. Finally I'll be able to have a fully armored Argonian knight, breaking the stereotype that all Argonians are just thieves and scoundrels! Just because MOST are doesn't mean they all are!

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Post  GLIPP Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:18 pm

Slotha Sil wrote:
Rainbay wrote:Speaking of armors and such, I have a question that occured to me. Are we going to allow Argonians and Kahjiit to wear boots and helmets? In Morrowind they could only were open face helmets and no footware at all. This was always sort of a pain, especially because you couldn't use the Boots of Munchkin Awesomeness Blinding speed. Not that we'll include that item in this game, but the question still stands since it would be a major disadvantage for the two races.

Why wouldn't they make armor they can wear? They'd have problems with standradized human/mer gear, but nothing stops them from making armor that suits their abberant, inhuman physionomies.

Perhaps "Kajiit" and "Argonian" can be upgrades from the armorer skill?

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Post  Rainbay Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:36 pm

Speaking of the armorer system, I have a small thought.
Like I said, better armors have more upgrades allowed on them, so they get increasingly better.

This is true for up to daedric, but stops at ARTIFACT level weapons and armor and such.
No amount of armorer, even if you boost your armorer to 200 should allow you to upgrade artifacts. There comes a time where you simply can't do any more, and artifacts come that way. They are the paragon of items, and anything that could be done to them would only lessen their greatness.

If a character were to try anyways, the whole "artifacts disappear after a time period" would come into effect, making the artifact they tried to defile vanish.

Anyone have any comments on this idea?

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Post  Dagoth Durr Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:22 am

If you're ever in Black Marsh or Elsweyr it seems silly for you not to be able to find armor crafted for beastfolk feet. Probably true of the biggest cities as well. The Imperial City is pretty diverse.
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Post  Rainbay Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:40 am

Dagoth Durr wrote:If you're ever in Black Marsh or Elsweyr it seems silly for you not to be able to find armor crafted for beastfolk feet. Probably true of the biggest cities as well. The Imperial City is pretty diverse.

True. Perhaps it would be possible to find some types of armor more suited in southern Morrowind as well, such as that awesome Hist sap armor. Just don't expect to find TOO much of the special made armor in Vvardenfell/racistland, where people think the beastfolk are better suited picking their cottonweed, not fighting in dungeons.

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