Fatigue: Do we or Don't We?

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Post  N'wah on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:30 am

I like the Idea of having fatigue added as a bonus to rolls. You could hard cap the point allowed to use per action at half the level of the governing skill. so if you failed a roll for Destruction at lv50, you'd be allowed to take 25pts off your roll.

Would you have to add the points before you roll or would you be able to salvage a bad roll after the fact?

Fatigue should not be constant across all character. It is a representation of physical fitness and should be in game and should reflect your class. An acrobat will be more fit than a mage and therefore have more fatigue.

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Post  Dagoth Durr on Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:15 am

I like fatigue being a roll bonus, but still want to keep the synergy system. I can see concerns that it could be unbalancing to have both though. Perhaps require a minimum skill proficiency before you can use fatigue to boost the roll?
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:37 am

Dagoth Durr wrote:I like fatigue being a roll bonus, but still want to keep the synergy system. I can see concerns that it could be unbalancing to have both though. Perhaps require a minimum skill proficiency before you can use fatigue to boost the roll?

Well, look at it this way. A new character with say, 40 in agility, willpower, and strength would have 60 fatigue. I didn't think we'd let fatigue restore on it's own except on rest, similar to a second magicka bar. Thus he could only boost a skill a few times a day, and even then, only if he went by only 10 boosts. He would only be able to boost by 20 twice, and 30 once. So let's say he has 40 in long blades as one of his main skills. Well, then he'd have a functioning level of 10 in his short blades skill. If we go by flat boost, he could boost it to 20 in short blades six times a day, 30 twice instead, or 40 to match his long blades skill only one roll a day. And if that roll doesn't work? back to 10, and since he blew 50 fatigue and only has 60, can only boost it to 20 for the next roll, and after that no more boosts and is stuck at 10 short blade, a major disadvantage.

It goes pretty well with synergy I'd say. I'm a little more worried about them boosting their highest weapon skill or some such, but even then it only lasts for one roll.

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Post  Outlander on Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:10 am

I have no problem with a high level character boosting his skill past the max for a single roll. At that point you're likely performing epic shenanigans which deserve that kind of treatment anyway.

If we say that Fatigue has to be spent before the roll, that pretty much eliminates any potential abuse, and pretty much just amounts to the player decided what actions are most important to them, and what to give their all for a shot at epic heroism. Good deal, I'd say.

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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:42 am

Outlander wrote:I have no problem with a high level character boosting his skill past the max for a single roll. At that point you're likely performing epic shenanigans which deserve that kind of treatment anyway.

If we say that Fatigue has to be spent before the roll, that pretty much eliminates any potential abuse, and pretty much just amounts to the player decided what actions are most important to them, and what to give their all for a shot at epic heroism. Good deal, I'd say.

Yes, that's how I saw it. Now the current question is: How do we handle fatigue restoration, with things such as spells and potions? I recall I was basically swimming in fatigue potions in morrowind, if we have fatigue be so useful, this can't be the case to the same extent, right?

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Post  Saint Jiub on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:01 pm

I suggested that we make Fatigue either per-session or per-adventure. I prefer per-adventure because it makes it REALLY precious, and makes sure you only use it for shit you really need (or REALLY cool tricks). It also ensures that people don't just use fatigue as a substitute for actually leveling up their skills.
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Post  Outlander on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:07 pm

I think getting it back on rest is fine. If, as a GM, you want to make shit more intense, just don't let your players rest much (YOUR REST HAS BEEN INTERRUPTED!). Fatigue restoration spells are fine, since they drain Magicka, which you also won't get back 'till you rest, so it's just a matter of which you want more.

Potions, as they are in Morrowind, are something of an issue anyway. We could probably alleviate all sorts of issues by limiting how many potions you can consume per day, or giving them unpleasant side effects.

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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:16 pm

Yes, I agree... limiting potion intake is probably a good idea. That way, you have to be more selective about which potions you take. And who in the party takes which potions. We could always make really strong potions either really expensive, difficult to make, or have strong negative kickback.

And per adventure fatigue sounds insane, given the way we've outlined it working.

For example, you have say... 30 pole arm skill. You attack someone who is wearing steel armor with 30 heavy armor skill. I don't know how much steel would work, so I'll just go by the game system of 15. So now you have to role under your skill level, and then take another +15 to whatever you rolled, meaning you'd have to roll 15 or below. Expending a little fatigue, say 10 points, to get that down to +5 seems pretty reasonable. Afterall, in the game swinging your weapon takes fatigue with each swing, and if you don't have much fatigue you don't hit anything or do much damage.

Of course, it depends on the length of your adventure. If the adventure would be as long and painful as the one witht he red mountain exploding I mentioned in the campaigns thread in fan-wank, only getting so much fatigue would be a little difficult to say the least.

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Post  Saint Jiub on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:25 pm

Just remember, that guy in steel is also going to have to hit you. At low skill levels, combat is probably just gonna be somewhat slow unless we make it extra-deadly. I guess that's gonna be our next decision.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:31 pm

Saint Jiub wrote:Just remember, that guy in steel is also going to have to hit you. At low skill levels, combat is probably just gonna be somewhat slow unless we make it extra-deadly. I guess that's gonna be our next decision.

Who says he doesn't have some fatigue as well? Otherwise why bother having drain and absorb fatigue spells and effects?

EDIT: Plus, this makes Hand-to-hand more useful. It is the weakest form of combat at the same level as the others for damaging just hp, but it deals damage to hp and fatigue, making it have defensive uses as well. At least, that's how I pictured it.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:43 pm

After reading the DH/RT rules (which had been proposed as a model, and were similar to some d20 mechanics from SW and Modern) and the rest of this thread, I'm still not sold on needing fatigue for any reason that staying true to the CPRG's mechanics. Or, rather, on calling it fatigue and tying it to endurance, willpower, whatever. Why not call it something else and have it based on your luck skill?
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Post  Saint Jiub on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:44 pm

You might have just found a use for Luck (since I personally don't intend to add or subtract it from EVERY roll...)
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:51 pm

Saint Jiub wrote:You might have just found a use for Luck (since I personally don't intend to add or subtract it from EVERY roll...)

Dang, then what is fatigue going to be good for?

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Post  Outlander on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:52 pm

I find I'm rather attached to having a fatigue system. It strikes me as much more badass than just deciding when to be lucky. Maybe we can have luck allow for a certain number of re-rolls per session (Or per adventure)?

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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:56 pm

Outlander wrote:I find I'm rather attached to having a fatigue system. It strikes me as much more badass than just deciding when to be lucky. Maybe we can have luck allow for a certain number of re-rolls per session (Or per adventure)?

I agree, I think fatigue is a good thing to have, and how it works currently isn't too bad, although there is always room for improvement.

luck/20 or luck/10 gives number of rerolls per session? Remember, luck is the hardest stat to raise, so no one would prolly get to 100 luck. All characters start at 40 luck. So 2 rerolls is barely any, but could certainly change the outcome of an event.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:57 pm

I like that the fatigue system would let you choose how much to expend, but aside from that I don't see the need for it. It seems like it'd be cumbersome to calculate, but if it were streamlined any more it'd have no real connection to "fatigue" as a concept. Then there's the issue of uneven fatigue between characters. I mean, this makes sense in game - after all, an acrobat is going to have more fatigue than a squishy wizard, especially if it's partly based on endurance (and the acrobat uses endurance-based skills more). But is there an in game reason that the acrobat gets to do feats of stunning effort more than the wizard, other than it being called fatigue?
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:59 pm

LessRudeScrib wrote:I like that the fatigue system would let you choose how much to expend, but aside from that I don't see the need for it. It seems like it'd be cumbersome to calculate, but if it were streamlined any more it'd have no real connection to "fatigue" as a concept. Then there's the issue of uneven fatigue between characters. I mean, this makes sense in game - after all, an acrobat is going to have more fatigue than a squishy wizard, especially if it's partly based on endurance (and the acrobat uses endurance-based skills more). But is there an in game reason that the acrobat gets to do feats of stunning effort more than the wizard, other than it being called fatigue?

The way I had it was fatigue was strength/2 + agility/2 + willpower/2

So each side of the triangle has some representation. Endurance is just for calculating HP and Intelligence is just for calculating magicka.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:02 pm

Ok, I was thinking that END was calculated into fatigue for some reason.

I'm still not sold on fatigue as a mechanic, though. I think that luck would be a more streamlined system of accomplishing the same thing.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:06 pm

LessRudeScrib wrote:Ok, I was thinking that END was calculated into fatigue for some reason.

I'm still not sold on fatigue as a mechanic, though. I think that luck would be a more streamlined system of accomplishing the same thing.

Luck would allow a very limited amount of rerolls per session; resting doesn't get them back. I kind of like this idea.

Fatigue also allows 3 different skills to get some more use. Luck would reduce it to one. And let's not forget, luck is a rather difficult level to raise.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:15 pm

Except all 3 of those skills have abilities already tied to them, while luck really doesn't. I'm going to go look at SW and d20 modern and see how they handled action point stuff (I think it was adding 1d6 to any roll, but I'm not sure how the calculated or raised it).
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Post  GLIPP on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:24 pm

While the concept of action points, fate points, bennies, or a rose-by-any-other-name is cool, using fatigue as one of them seems to go against the spirit of the game, in my opinion. From what I've gathered from playing, fatigue is not something you're rewarded for using, but something you're punished for not conserving.

I recommend that this game keep the same spirit, even if not the same mechanic.

An example of how this could be done is after every encounter involving heavy physical exertion (such as combat or a dramatic chase through Sadrith Mora or Tel Vos), and after every full minute of running, character must make a fatigue roll or take a penalty or all rolls until rested. A success means no penalty, and failure by a set degree leads to a corresponding penalty.

I do like the idea of fatigue being used as a booster though, and I think it would be great if we found a way to incorporate both uses.

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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:28 pm

That is very true GLIPP. It is more of a punishment for not having than a bonus. However, if we do that we might want to return to the system where more stats add more to fatigue, so you have more of it, since it will be used up so much on every action.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:30 pm

I'm really digging the fatigue as a penalty idea. Maybe use fatigue as the penalty and luck as a limited # of rerolls?
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:38 pm

So we return to the whole Fatigue = strength + agility + willpower + endurance, and then have every action cost fatigue? And if you don't expend the amount the action requires, you take a penalty. Let's say you want to swing your really heavy warhammer, and really make it count with a haymaker. It takes 75 fatigue to do so. You are somewhat tired already from the fight, and only expend 50. Thus your attack functions with a large penalty.

Something like that?

One reason for the fatigue bonus idea was that when you are really really low in a skill, rolling under it is almost impossible. Skill synergy helps this of course, but only so much. Perhaps we could allow people to expend over the amount of fatigue to get the bonus effect still, and they will have to weigh if they want to be punished later and have to ration their fatigue more carefully?

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Post  GLIPP on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:45 pm

Rainbay wrote:So we return to the whole Fatigue = strength + agility + willpower + endurance, and then have every action cost fatigue? And if you don't expend the amount the action requires, you take a penalty. Let's say you want to swing your really heavy warhammer, and really make it count with a haymaker. It takes 75 fatigue to do so. You are somewhat tired already from the fight, and only expend 50. Thus your attack functions with a large penalty.

That seems a bit too complicated, and while it is more true to the game than my idea of how to handle it, I don't think that implementation would be for the best. I'm not recomending fatigue be returned to what it was, but rather that it become something new and different.

Let's say, we make it (str+end+will)/3, then after every time a character exerts himself somehow (per encounter, not per action), he would have to roll under that formula, and a failure would mean a +10 on all rolls until an hour of resting, and a larger failure would mean a larger penalty.

Again, to clarify, I recommend fatigue be after the encounter itself is over, not after every individual action. And that it not be spent, but be a separate stat to roll against.

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