Fatigue: Do we or Don't We?

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Post  Saint Jiub on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:49 pm

I really, REALLY wanna stay away from having Fatigue as a penalty. If you have to exert it for everything you have to do, you're gonna spend half your time erasing and rewriting, and that shit will get real old, real fast. In fact, it seems to me this whole Fatigue idea has gone from a very simple one (1 Fatigue out of a pool of up to 30 = 10% bonus to a skill roll) to an arcane formula involving 3 fractions of different skills, out of a pool of up to 150 or 300, spending 3 points here, 26 there, to tracking fatigue for every single action. Remember, we're not building FATAL: The Elder Scrolls edition. Simplicity is smooth play and smooth play is just more fun.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:54 pm

Saint Jiub wrote:I really, REALLY wanna stay away from having Fatigue as a penalty. If you have to exert it for everything you have to do, you're gonna spend half your time erasing and rewriting, and that shit will get real old, real fast. In fact, it seems to me this whole Fatigue idea has gone from a very simple one (1 Fatigue out of a pool of up to 30 = 10% bonus to a skill roll) to an arcane formula involving 3 fractions of different skills, out of a pool of up to 150 or 300, spending 3 points here, 26 there, to tracking fatigue for every single action. Remember, we're not building FATAL: The Elder Scrolls edition. Simplicity is smooth play and smooth play is just more fun.

Right right, writing shit down sucks. I was for making people have to use nice simple whole numbers, but even then it can get pretty complicated. Glipp making is a seperate stat sounds like a pretty good idea.

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Post  GLIPP on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:57 pm

Saint Jiub wrote:I really, REALLY wanna stay away from having Fatigue as a penalty. If you have to exert it for everything you have to do, you're gonna spend half your time erasing and rewriting, and that shit will get real old, real fast. In fact, it seems to me this whole Fatigue idea has gone from a very simple one (1 Fatigue out of a pool of up to 30 = 10% bonus to a skill roll) to an arcane formula involving 3 fractions of different skills, out of a pool of up to 150 or 300, spending 3 points here, 26 there, to tracking fatigue for every single action. Remember, we're not building FATAL: The Elder Scrolls edition. Simplicity is smooth play and smooth play is just more fun.

How about this...

Adding fatigue level. You start at fresh, after one failure you are at winded, two failures you are at tired, three failures exhausted, and four spent. Each level has a corresponding penalty. The stat to roll under can be further simplified to (endurance + will)/2. No more complicated than HP at present.

While I do understand your concern, I feel that adding in fatigue solely as a bonus would go against the spirit of it, and I feel a compromise can be reached.

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Post  Saint Jiub on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:03 pm

That's a lot simpler, and I like it way better than the other systems. Maybe we can use Luck for those limited-use rerolls we were talking about before, or for temporary skill boosts pre-roll at a reduced price? That way we still have a mechanic for those "Oh, shi" moments, but we keep Fatigue as a system more faithful to the vidya gaems.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:16 pm

Saint Jiub wrote:That's a lot simpler, and I like it way better than the other systems. Maybe we can use Luck for those limited-use rerolls we were talking about before, or for temporary skill boosts pre-roll at a reduced price? That way we still have a mechanic for those "Oh, shi" moments, but we keep Fatigue as a system more faithful to the vidya gaems.

Yes, that actually sounds like a good idea. Everybody wins!

Fatigue potions can come in bonuses of -1 negative level, -2, -3 and so on and so forth, with you drinking different levels depending on how tired out you are.

Question though: how will fortify fatigue spells and such be handled? And absorb fatigue?

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:18 pm

Again, aside from fidelity to the games, why do we need fatigue?
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Post  Hexx on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:32 pm

Rainbay wrote:
Saint Jiub wrote:That's a lot simpler, and I like it way better than the other systems. Maybe we can use Luck for those limited-use rerolls we were talking about before, or for temporary skill boosts pre-roll at a reduced price? That way we still have a mechanic for those "Oh, shi" moments, but we keep Fatigue as a system more faithful to the vidya gaems.

Yes, that actually sounds like a good idea. Everybody wins!

Fatigue potions can come in bonuses of -1 negative level, -2, -3 and so on and so forth, with you drinking different levels depending on how tired out you are.

Question though: how will fortify fatigue spells and such be handled? And absorb fatigue?

You answered your own question ^^, exactly like the potions! Fortify Fatigue could be you counts as having an extra level of fatigue (so that, for example, it takes TWO failures to go down the first level). Absorb fatigue is simple enough, stealing a level or more (depending on skill/potency etc) from your target.

I like this idea a lot, but we need to flesh it out. Maybe add more levels, cause with just 4 bad rolls away from having too many penalties to do jackshit is quite harsh... although I guess that COULD make purchasing potions and maintaining a good inventory important.

Aside from fidelity also, we kinda feel it should be included cause it's one of things that is almost exclusively TES. There's no solid reason to have it, but no solid reason to NOT, either.
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Post  Saint Jiub on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:41 pm

A lot of games have rules for fatigue, but they generally get ignored. In TES, if you run out of fatigue, you feel it hard. Suddenly, you can't hit diddly with your weapon and even a stray cliff racer can become a threat. Furthermore, it's a good SKREEE! SKREE! OH GOD GET THEM OFF ME AOIGHIWHFLS
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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:43 pm

Alright, fair enough. I'd been looking at it as importing a mechanic rather than a flavor-enhancer. I think I'm still more-or-less anti-fatigue, but willing to be convinced.
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Post  GLIPP on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:44 pm

Hexx wrote:I like this idea a lot, but we need to flesh it out. Maybe add more levels, cause with just 4 bad rolls away from having too many penalties to do jackshit is quite harsh... although I guess that COULD make purchasing potions and maintaining a good inventory important.

Keep in mind that fatigue rolls in the system I recommended would be made after encounters, not after actions. So even going three encounters in a row is not likely unless your GM is throwing some endurance run "defend the city type system"

As for why, it's because the point of this project is to make a game as thematically and mechanicaly close to the vidya as possible without making it completely unplayable. I mean, by the same token, why not just play D&D with custom races and a borrowed setting?

And for the fatigue modifiers, fortify fatigue could be an auto-success on your next (few) fatigue roll(s), drain fatigue could be used to temporarily restore yourself while draining your enemy (in the middle of combat no less), and damage fatigue could be used to sap your enemy.

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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:46 pm

Nitpick, drain just removes from them temporarily. So that could make it so they act like they have less fatigue rolls for the next few rolls. Damage could be the one to make it last.

Absorb was what you were thinking of, not drain.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:49 pm

Make fatigue checks the last stage of combat. As in "alright, you drop the last cliff-racer, make your fatigue checks now," and then the GM writes them down for the next encounter.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:52 pm

Or if you are doing an especially difficult action. Such as attempting to climb up the Sadrith Mora main Mushroom spire in order to sneak in and rob/steal some loot inside late at night. Or trying to climb up red mountain or some such. Thoughts?

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Post  Hexx on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:53 pm

LessRudeScrib wrote:Make fatigue checks the last stage of combat. As in "alright, you drop the last cliff-racer, make your fatigue checks now," and then the GM writes them down for the next encounter.

Seconded. Like a Reverse Initiative of sorts!
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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:04 pm

Rainbay wrote:Or if you are doing an especially difficult action. Such as attempting to climb up the Sadrith Mora main Mushroom spire in order to sneak in and rob/steal some loot inside late at night. Or trying to climb up red mountain or some such. Thoughts?
Again, maybe keep it as post-encouter. So after you complete one climb check, you'd have to make a fatigue check that would effect the next thing you do.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:08 pm

LessRudeScrib wrote:
Rainbay wrote:Or if you are doing an especially difficult action. Such as attempting to climb up the Sadrith Mora main Mushroom spire in order to sneak in and rob/steal some loot inside late at night. Or trying to climb up red mountain or some such. Thoughts?
Again, maybe keep it as post-encouter. So after you complete one climb check, you'd have to make a fatigue check that would effect the next thing you do.

Yes, I meant to check it afterwards. So you've scampered up a 10 story tall mushroom, now you roll to see if you are winded by it.

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Post  Admin on Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:36 pm

I have nothing meaningful to contribute here apart from my approval. I rather like the idea of something you check after the end of encounters and in levels, rather than another health-bar type system. It minimizes the need for scribbling and painstaking calculation, but remains true to the games by maintaining the importance of fatigue and penalizing you for trying to do too much too quickly.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:40 pm

Now we just need to figure out how much each tick of fatigue will hurt you. How about a -10 modifier on each roll for each fatigue tickmark? So if you would have to roll under 30, you'd have to roll under 20. How does that sound?
Suggestions? COmplaints? Too complex?

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Post  Admin on Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:42 pm

I hardly see how that would be too complex. It's pretty easy and it means that, if you're completely drained you have a -40% chance to do, well, anything. I can't really conjure up any problems with it.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:51 pm

Admin wrote:I hardly see how that would be too complex. It's pretty easy and it means that, if you're completely drained you have a -40% chance to do, well, anything. I can't really conjure up any problems with it.

I may have been joking slightly about the "too complex" part. We tend to come up with an idea, think it's great, then start working out the details and shout "BAH! TOO COMPLEX! ROLL FOR ANAL CIRCUMFERENCE!"

Speaking of too complex, we should work out how spell cost and difficulty will be calculated next, but that is a matter for another thread.

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Post  Admin on Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:57 pm

Wow. I think that we've actually come to a system we're all reasonably content with, is true to the spirit of the games, and is fairly simple. At the end of combat, roll at or under (Agility+Endurance/2), or else lose a fatigue level and get a 10% penalty on all actions. Unless anyone has any final thoughts on the matter, I think that we have fatigue finalized and ready-to-go.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:01 pm

Should strength and willpower be included? I especially think willpower should be, since it is what mages are going to be specialized in. Although them getting winded would make sense if they are squishy. So it would be strength+endurance+agility+willpower/4

Too complex with too many stats? Or ok? I'm content with what we've come up with otherwise, if this is no good.

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Post  Admin on Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:06 pm

At most, I would do (Willpower+Endurance+Agility/3). I don't think we need to add strength in there. Honestly, any one of these is fine, but unless there are any objections I'd just as soon use (Agility+Endurance/2) to streamline the system.
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Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:19 pm

Yeah, I went with /4 because division by three tends to give repeating fractions more. Willpower+Endurance/2 might make more sense though if we are going with two, since willpower would give you inner strength and all the jazz. Although agility makes sense too. So basically I'm posting to not say much, hurrah.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:06 pm

I like WILL+END/2, and have officially been converted to pro-fatigue.
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