Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

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Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  LessRudeScrib on Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:46 pm

Alright, gentlemen -
Do we want do do factions? Should there be a gameplay advantage to joining a great house or faction of the temple, or should it be roleplay and GM fiat?

For reference, the faction table from Morrowind.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Rainbay on Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:00 pm

Perhaps we could attach small bonuses to joining factions, such as bonuses to skills or stats. Small ones, that may increase as you rise in the ranks. Or we could just go with the morrowind way of have it make you more popular with some, and hated with others. I loved how telvanni hated every faction except telvanni.

Or we could obviously have them in game, but make the stuff just fluff that the players and GM act around.

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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  LessRudeScrib on Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:24 pm

I think there definitely need to be reaction adjustments for other factions - Trib and Redoran like eachother, Hlaalu and East Empire Don't (I think), etc.

As for bonuses, maybe joining certain factions increases the amount your skills rise by as you advance, or satisfies certain prereqs - e.g. Getting to rank 2 in House Telvanni unlocks Necromancy as a bonus skill.

Actually, why not have each faction give a bonus skill? (because that would penalize players who don't join factions, obviously).

Or perhaps factions give benefits similar to birthsigns?

What say you?
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Saint Jiub on Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:57 pm

What if we made one benefit of factions being able to train above the 50% hard cap in certain skills? That way, if one rogue-type in your group really wants to join the thieves' guild, the rest of you can still benefit from it even though you're not necessarily of the sneak-thieving bent?
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:13 am

I'm not sure about that. I like the idea of letting factions give some flexibility on the hard cap, but sort of leery on giving that benefit to people who aren't in that faction, although since this is going to be pnp and therefore >1 player, we're going to have to deal with that.

Maybe have a separate set of benefits for the faction-member and members of his party. The member of the Thieves Guild gets some flexibility on his hard cap or a boost to a skill or whatever, and his party-mates, since they're known by the Guild to be basically ok dudes get better prices from the local fence, or make bounties/warrants/whatever law enforcement system goes into the game go away.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:17 am

I think you should be able to join more than one, but only when it works out logically. So no Mage's guild and House Telvanni, unless you were backstabbing one of them. No Camonna tong and Thieves guild. No Tribunal temple and Imperial Cult. And so on.

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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:18 am

I think we might want to leave that up to the GM. Or rather, include rules for discovery - an opposed streetwise or personality check maybe? So you could join two factions, but you'd constantly be at risk for being exposed as a double agent.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:23 am

LessRudeScrib wrote:I think we might want to leave that up to the GM. Or rather, include rules for discovery - an opposed streetwise or personality check maybe? So you could join two factions, but you'd constantly be at risk for being exposed as a double agent.

Well, everything is ultimately left up to the GM remember, but we can still set basic standards of how things work. It makes as much sense joining more than one Great House as it does Joining Imperial Cult and Tribunal temple without there being ANY conflict.

Although you could play with someone else in your group a Cult member while you follow the Temple. Could lead to interesting circumstances.

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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:29 am

Right. You could join both the Temple and the Cult, if your character was a slimy opportunist, but you might get caught and expelled from one or both. But yes, I think having a set up of "these groups are more-or-less ok with each other and these groups aren't" would be helpful.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:40 am

LessRudeScrib wrote:Right. You could join both the Temple and the Cult, if your character was a slimy opportunist, but you might get caught and expelled from one or both. But yes, I think having a set up of "these groups are more-or-less ok with each other and these groups aren't" would be helpful.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Factions

Scroll down until you see the big grid.Tells you exactly how the factions feel about each other, although make sure to read the guide to the list in order to figure out how it works. Hates aren't always both ways. SOme factions hate another faction, yet that faction is neutral towards them

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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:42 am

Posted that at the start of the thread as a starting point. It's a place to start, but I do think we should have a system for joining more than one faction, and consequences if found out.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:47 am

Oooh, I didn't see, sorry. Well, we can use the grid to decide how bad the punishment should be if one faction finds out of the other. -1 might just be looked down upon, -2 might mean expulsion from the faction, -3 might be them trying to kill you for being a dirty traitor. This is just in general of course, smooth talking and the circumstances at hand factor into actions as well.

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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Saint Jiub on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:52 am

Sorry, I meant if one person joins the thieves' guild for the jobs, the rest of you can become the equivalent of "lay members" - not actual thieves, but you might occasionally help out, and as a result you get some fringe benefits. Kinda like you can be a lay member of the temple or cult without actually being a believer.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:06 am

Depending on how complicated we want to get with the reputation system, that could be anything from bonuses to dealing with members to "favors."

Not necessarily a bad idea.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:18 am

LessRudeScrib wrote:Depending on how complicated we want to get with the reputation system, that could be anything from bonuses to dealing with members to "favors."

Not necessarily a bad idea.

To simply not trying to murder you if the faction you are in really, really clashes. Always a plus, I say.

Perhaps if you are a member of the Imperial cult and They are a member of the Temple, you'd be able to trade for supplies with the temple workers, but at a slightly higher rate, and not be allowed to use the shrines or purchase spells.

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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:28 am

Exactly. Mean, I'm pretty sure you couldn't pull it off with (going from the chart) a Nerevarine Cult Member and a Temple member, but I think a good faction system could make the game fun and interesting.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Dagoth Durr on Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:47 am

Just want to point out that King Helseth was officially a member of both the Imperial Cult and Tribunal Temple.

You have to be slick as fuck to pull it off, and neither side will probably ever totally accept you, but it's possible.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Konrad Von Curio on Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:15 am

Dagoth Durr wrote:Just want to point out that King Helseth was officially a member of both the Imperial Cult and Tribunal Temple.

You have to be slick as fuck to pull it off, and neither side will probably ever totally accept you, but it's possible.

Well the Dunmers in Morrowind did acknowledge the Aedra but questioned if they where worthy of worship. So I suppose it is not heresy as much as you will just get generally scorned.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:14 pm

The Temple is more dismissive of the Nine Divines than anything else. They don't really see them as a thread to their power-base in Morrowind yet, although I imagine that conflict would be increasingly likely as the province became more Imperialized.

On the subject of rules governing faction affiliation, I propose a sort of "membership-point" system. You gain points based on skill ranks in skills favored by the organization and for doing certain quests, and when you hit a certain threshhold of points you can increase in rank, providing benefits within the organization itself such as access to organization-specific items, discounts, political clout, benefits to interaction with other faction-members, and at higher rankings the ability to command junior members or building a stronghold. However, to counterbalance this, you would suffer from penalty to interactions with opposed faction-members, you would have to donate time or money regularly to the organization, you would have numerous responsibilities, and you would suffer a severe penalty in "membership-points" with opposing organizations. We'd need to hammer out specifics, obviously, but that's a sort of system that I think might work well.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  LessRudeScrib on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:18 pm

So, you could be fairly low level in many things, but once you started getting up there, you'd start running into problems, unless playing fairly strongly linked factions.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:23 pm

LessRudeScrib wrote:So, you could be fairly low level in many things, but once you started getting up there, you'd start running into problems, unless playing fairly strongly linked factions.

Right, like you could join both the fighters guild, imperial cult and mages guild and perhaps even the Imperial legion without much issue even at relatively high levels. Throw in say, house telvanni, thieves guild and Temple into the mix, and problems start to arise.

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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Dagoth Durr on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:52 am

Speaking of strongholds, the ability to hold land is definitely something that needs to be in this game. It was one of the coolest parts of Morrowind. Although unlike Morrowind, I think you ought to be able to have a seasonal income and maybe, in far future development, even a levy of troops. Plus a stronghold can provide all sorts of quest hooks.
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Rainbay on Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:31 am

Dagoth Durr wrote:Speaking of strongholds, the ability to hold land is definitely something that needs to be in this game. It was one of the coolest parts of Morrowind. Although unlike Morrowind, I think you ought to be able to have a seasonal income and maybe, in far future development, even a levy of troops. Plus a stronghold can provide all sorts of quest hooks.

True. But should we go with strongholds only with the great houses as it was in game, or allow other factions to gain them, perhaps with more difficulty? They wouldn't be the same as the house's strongholds, which basically small towns, but more along the line of forts, safehouses or maybe even a tower for the mage's guild.

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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Dagoth Durr on Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:46 am

I don't think the Imperial guilds are landholders. I think non noble house factions (which do exist outside Morrowind, there's tons of Imperial dukes and duchesses you could swear fealty to, and High Rock is swimming in nobility) should be the only situation where you actually own something resembling a town or fiefdom.

However other factions could have slightly different set ups. An Imperial Legion character might rise high enough to gain command of a local garrison, he/she'd collect no income from his/her post, but would receive funding at regular intervals to outfit his guardsmen and their keep, and in return be expected to keep the peace.

Mages Guild characters might become head of a guildhall, and be expected to provide services to the public and perhaps undertake magical research and acquire magical curiosities in addition to their adventuring.

And there's other stuff to, becoming boss of a branch of the Comonna Tong and extracting protection money and arranging hits, getting an Imperial Cult mission, building a shrine to the Tribunal....all possibilities.

Of course now it occurs to me this is more just general high level faction stuff than stronghold specifics.

Perhaps it would be best to come up with a general outline for land holding then modify it for special cases? Is anyone aware of any existing systems of administration/command that might be a good source of ideas?
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Re: Factions - ought we or oughtn't we?

Post  Saint Jiub on Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:40 am

I've not looked this over in great detail, but Green Ronin's Song of Ice and Fire P&P game has some really cool looking rules for running land, being a nob, etc.
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