Combat System

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Re: Combat System

Post  Slotha Sil on Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:40 pm

Rainbay wrote:Good lord that thing is labyrinthian. I can feel my eyes crossing just looking at it.

And I dunno, I'm kind of partial to the system we set up, even though it might not be as true to the game as it could be. That one does have the bonus of working in luck however.

And for daggers, there are always enchantments and poisons and sneak attacks.
Although you are right, if you hit, there needs to be base amount of damage you should do.

Well, we've already considered dodging being based off agility of you and the opponent, and frankly I like the idea of including it into the attack roll, thus eliminating one roll from each attack sequence. Damage reduction remains a nightmare - it has to be relatively small to work with weapon damage, yet relatively big to create noticeable feeling of difference between armors, and to somehow be derived from a skill which goes up to 100. Without complicated multiplication and division.
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Re: Combat System

Post  GLIPP on Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:22 pm

Slotha Sil wrote:Damage reduction remains a nightmare - it has to be relatively small to work with weapon damage, yet relatively big to create noticeable feeling of difference between armors, and to somehow be derived from a skill which goes up to 100. Without complicated multiplication and division.

Alternatively, we could dial everything up to eleven to compensate. Turn HP into STR+2*END, and use the d100 roll under system for damage, too. I know it's crazy, but we can try it out if we run out of other ideas.

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Re: Combat System

Post  Slotha Sil on Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:32 pm

GLIPP wrote:Alternatively, we could dial everything up to eleven to compensate. Turn HP into STR+2*END, and use the d100 roll under system for damage, too. I know it's crazy, but we can try it out if we run out of other ideas.

I was thinking the same thing lately. The game does give you 300+ hit points when you max out your levels, and modified AR for some artifact cuirasses goes to 350. I'll be thinking along those lines in the next few days to see what I can come up with.
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Re: Combat System

Post  Saint Jiub on Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:15 pm

Dragonball T
The T stands for Tamriel.
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Re: Combat System

Post  Admin on Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:24 pm

Outlander wrote:I think having a Dodge value is kind of wonky, and seems like the sort of thing that should already be represented by Encumbrance in some way. Why not just roll under your Agility-(YET TO BE DETERMINED ENCUMBRANCE MODIFIER) to dodge a successful hit against you? A dude that specializes in heavy armor is not likely to have all that much agility, and his armor is going to weigh him down enough that dodging won't do him much good. This way, armor can just have a skill modifier (SKILL+50 for Daedric, perhaps, or SKILL-20 for Iron) for damage reduction and the rest resolves itself.

I really like this idea! Of course, that's because we hit upon a similar idea way back when in an earlier, unarchived thread, so of course I'd like it. Yours is a bit more refined, though, and I think we can work with it pretty well. It's simple, provides good reasons for all the armor classes to exist, and doesn't really unfairly bias against anything except Unarmored, which can be remedied via skill perks.
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Re: Combat System

Post  Outlander on Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:27 pm

As much as I admire the simple effectiveness of the fatigue system we have set at this time, I think we should revisit the possibility of an expendable Fatigue pool in place of rolling for damage, as per the games. Fatigue spent translates directly to damage dealt, from and up to the limits set on each weapon.

Further brainstorming: Perhaps, to represent the extended amount of time it takes to make a big swing in Morrowind, the amount of fatigue spent would also subtract from your dodge or block roll, if we're going with a defensive roll system like I proposed earlier, or alternately it could subtract from your "to hit" roll, representing the increased time your opponent has to get out of the way.

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Re: Combat System

Post  Rainbay on Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:52 pm

Hmmm... rolling for damage is a bit of a pain with the way weapons are set up in morrowind. The desposable pool to use to do damage does sound pretty nifty. However, how would we show the loss of fatigue for other actions, like spell casting? Less fatigue means less success with casting spells and picking locks and most things, really. How would we display that without using maddening formula?

Also, if we do bring back the fatigue pool, I like the idea of after tough encounters having to roll to see if you are tired out, applying negatives on rolls that stack as you become more and more beat. Could allow for some devious plotlines amongst other things, where the PC's aren't allowed to rest to restore themselves, and not only do they have to be careful with their health, but their fatigue penalties gradually stack up.

ALSO: How would critical hits work without random damage? Would those be calculated when you are deciding whether the attack hit or miss?

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Re: Combat System

Post  Outlander on Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:54 pm

Rainbay wrote:Hmmm... rolling for damage is a bit of a pain with the way weapons are set up in morrowind. The desposable pool to use to do damage does sound pretty nifty. However, how would we show the loss of fatigue for other actions, like spell casting? Less fatigue means less success with casting spells and picking locks and most things, really. How would we display that without using maddening formula?
Base that on the fatigue level thing. As currently established, Fatigue already handles this by giving you a negative to all your actions when you're worn out.

Rainbay wrote:Also, if we do bring back the fatigue pool, I like the idea of after tough encounters having to roll to see if you are tired out, applying negatives on rolls that stack as you become more and more beat. Could allow for some devious plotlines amongst other things, where the PC's aren't allowed to rest to restore themselves, and not only do they have to be careful with their health, but their fatigue penalties gradually stack up.

The two systems are not mutually exclusive. In fact, you could roll against your remaining Fatigue pool (Rename to STAMINA?) to determine if you lose a Fatigue level.

Rainbay wrote:ALSO: How would critical hits work without random damage? Would those be calculated when you are deciding whether the attack hit or miss?

Yes. Roll to hit! Critical Success = Critical Damage!

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Re: Combat System

Post  Saint Jiub on Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:13 pm

I can't begin to describe how much I don't want a fatigue pool system, at this point. Especially if we're going to be blowing through it during combat, then rolling against it to see how winded we are. For one, it brings back the issue of "scribble secribble erase erase" that we wanted to avoid. For another, it puts fighters at a disadvantage, unless we're just going to have every action cost fatigue (which brings us back to point one).
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Re: Combat System

Post  Rainbay on Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:20 pm

Saint Jiub wrote:I can't begin to describe how much I don't want a fatigue pool system, at this point. Especially if we're going to be blowing through it during combat, then rolling against it to see how winded we are. For one, it brings back the issue of "scribble secribble erase erase" that we wanted to avoid. For another, it puts fighters at a disadvantage, unless we're just going to have every action cost fatigue (which brings us back to point one).

Hate sound wishy washy, but now the reason we didn't go with the fatigue pool is coming back to me. Especially if we have fatigue be a pool, so much drawing from it.

EDIT: Although it wouldn't be much more scribbling than normal spellcasting. But I don't want fatigue to just end up a magicka but for melee combat.

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Re: Combat System

Post  Saint Jiub on Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:44 pm

Rainbay wrote:
Saint Jiub wrote:I can't begin to describe how much I don't want a fatigue pool system, at this point. Especially if we're going to be blowing through it during combat, then rolling against it to see how winded we are. For one, it brings back the issue of "scribble secribble erase erase" that we wanted to avoid. For another, it puts fighters at a disadvantage, unless we're just going to have every action cost fatigue (which brings us back to point one).

Hate sound wishy washy, but now the reason we didn't go with the fatigue pool is coming back to me. Especially if we have fatigue be a pool, so much drawing from it.

EDIT: Although it wouldn't be much more scribbling than normal spellcasting. But I don't want fatigue to just end up a magicka but for melee combat.

You put it better than me. I mean, I'm fine with mages not gaining fatigue if they don't really join in on the hack'n'slash of melee combat (since they have their own limiter, Magicka). But I don't want this to suddenly become "I spend x fatigue. take y damage." every turn.
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Re: Combat System

Post  Outlander on Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:24 am

I can definitely see how keeping track of that would be a tremendous pain in the ass. The fatigue thing probably wouldn't be a huge deal to keep track of if combat were deadly enough to be over in a few rounds, but I'm still not attached to the Fatigue Pool. I felt that it was at least worth bringing up again for discussion. I just thought the idea of determining the damage you do beforehand at some sort of penalty and then rolling to see if that effort was wasted is a novel idea that may make for interesting combat. In fact, I still do.

Perhaps it could be a more temporary thing? You determine damage, and then roll to hit, subtracting the damage from either your To Hit roll or your subsequent Defense roll, in order to represent how much longer a big attack takes in the game.

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Re: Combat System

Post  Slotha Sil on Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:39 pm

I see fatigue pool primary as part of a system to balance against extra big weapons that deal tremendous amounts of damage. Before developing this (and related ideas) further, we should wait and see what kind of combat system we develop. If we go for speed-based action points, damage of heavy bruisers can be offset by their high AP cost, and fatigue could be used to fuel actions taken over your AP allotment. If we go for more conservative standard action + move action + thingie per round, then we'll need more detailed fatigue costs of everything. Primarily as a sort of magicka for physical combat that bites you on the buttocks if you spend too much of it.
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Re: Combat System

Post  GLIPP on Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:14 pm

Slotha Sil wrote:I see fatigue pool primary as part of a system to balance against extra big weapons that deal tremendous amounts of damage. Before developing this (and related ideas) further, we should wait and see what kind of combat system we develop. If we go for speed-based action points, damage of heavy bruisers can be offset by their high AP cost, and fatigue could be used to fuel actions taken over your AP allotment. If we go for more conservative standard action + move action + thingie per round, then we'll need more detailed fatigue costs of everything. Primarily as a sort of magicka for physical combat that bites you on the buttocks if you spend too much of it.

I think we were going to have the speed stat influence how many "actions" you get in a round, so heavier weapons will probably be balanced out with low accuracy, and might cost more than once action to use.

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Re: Combat System

Post  Slotha Sil on Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:03 pm

It's always a third thing, isn't it...
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Re: Combat System

Post  Outlander on Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:36 pm

Did Speed actually affect your weapon speed in the PC game? If not, we could have it be straight-up Initiative in combat, and just movement elsewise.

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Re: Combat System

Post  Rainbay on Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:09 pm

Outlander wrote:Did Speed actually affect your weapon speed in the PC game? If not, we could have it be straight-up Initiative in combat, and just movement elsewise.

It did not. Only the weapon itself decided weapon speed.

However, it was more of actions you get kind of thing than just attacks. So with 100 speed, you'd get 4 actions to spend how you want.

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Re: Combat System

Post  Dagoth Durr on Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:36 am

Just have different equipment categories. Wearing heavy armor and wielding a two handed maul? That's -20 to your roll to see if you're fatigued after combat.
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Re: Combat System

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:05 pm

Dagoth Durr wrote:Just have different equipment categories. Wearing heavy armor and wielding a two handed maul? That's -20 to your roll to see if you're fatigued after combat.

This could also allow for a possible perk for heavy armor of not increasing the chance to fatigue you after battle if you wear it, perhaps at a really high level even providing a bonus to not getting to be fatigued, as shown in that one skills book where the man is such a master of heavy armor he can move better in it than out of it.

This would also allow another use for armorer. One adjustment for the different armors that would be available could be the ability to reduce their negative affect on your fatigue. So now we have two different skills helped out from this idea.

We could also have it be based not just on the armor style, but the actual encumberance of the armor itself. Thus light armors wouldn't hurt fatigue not because they are int he category of light armor, but because they actually don't weigh much. This way the heavier medium armors could have a negative fatigue effect as well.

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Re: Combat System

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:12 pm

For number of actions per turn, and hence weapon speed, I propose the following. All characters get a number of "Action Points" equal to their Speed/10, rounded down. Every action taken in a combat round costs a certain number of Action points, so like 1 for moving or 2 for attacking or 3 for casting a spell. Any thoughts? Obviously, we'd need to work out exactly how much everything costs, but it's a rough idea that I rather like, and I want to get some feedback before fleshing out the details.
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Re: Combat System

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:16 pm

I like it. It helps solidify the differences between using, say, a warhammer and a dagger. With what we had before, it was somewhat iffy, but this allows more room for different speeds of actions. How are you going to calculate the speed of different actions?

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Re: Combat System

Post  Dagoth Durr on Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:35 pm

I dunno...seems like a lot to keep track of.
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Re: Combat System

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:38 pm

True, but just having speed/25 give you how many actions you can take each "round" and any action taking the same amount doesn't give much room.

How do you figure it is a lot to keep track of, and how would you improve it?

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Re: Combat System

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:39 pm

I'm just thinking aloud here, but here's my proposed list of action costs:

Basic Move: 1 point
Short Blade Attack: 1 Point
Throwing Attack: 1 Point
1-Handed Axe Attack: 2 Points
1-Handed Blunt Attack: 2 Points
1-Handed Sword Attack: 2 Points
Spear Attack: 2 Points
2-Handed Sword Attack: 3 Points
2-Handed Axe Attack: 3 Points
Spellcasting: 3 Points
2-Handed Blunt Attack: 4 points

Furthermore, if you only take one action in a round, you may use any action regardless of point cost. For example, say you're an Orc with 30 speed wielding a massive warhammer. Normally, you couldn't swing it at all, which is just silly. So, as long as this orc only takes one action that round, he can swing his warhammer. Basically, point costs wouldn't matter at all until you start taking more than one action in a round.
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Re: Combat System

Post  Dagoth Durr on Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:42 pm

Eh, that's simple enough I suppose. have to keep track of it some way. I withdraw my objections.
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Re: Combat System

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