Various Skills

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Rainbay on Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:40 pm

LessRudeScrib wrote:I think that calls for a new thread. Can we start synergizing with the list from this page?

We already have a synergy thread, use that one.

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Hexx on Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:56 pm

Ok :3! So is the list Admin posted the sortof finalized version? Cause imma gonna go make up all the skill perks for each skill level and I need a final skill set
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Saint Jiub on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:02 pm

I hesitate to call it Final, because all of this is pending playtesting, but I'd definitely call it our "working list". That is, assume those are the skills we're working with when you create new content.
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Rainbay on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:13 pm

Good to see it's finalized. What is the survival skill for? I mean, I always like more options, but I honestly don't know what situations that would be used in.

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Saint Jiub on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:16 pm

Rainbay wrote:Good to see it's finalized. What is the survival skill for? I mean, I always like more options, but I honestly don't know what situations that would be used in.
Finding food in the wild, scrounging from bins in the alleys of the city, finding water in the desert - basically making your way in the world for little to no money. The kind of thing most RPGs only pay lip service to (aside from DM cat, when's the last time you had to bring food on an adventure?)
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Rainbay on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:38 pm

Saint Jiub wrote:
Rainbay wrote:Good to see it's finalized. What is the survival skill for? I mean, I always like more options, but I honestly don't know what situations that would be used in.
Finding food in the wild, scrounging from bins in the alleys of the city, finding water in the desert - basically making your way in the world for little to no money. The kind of thing most RPGs only pay lip service to (aside from DM cat, when's the last time you had to bring food on an adventure?)

Ah good, I was sort of hoping it would be for something like that. Very well, misunderstanding averted!

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Admin on Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:51 pm

Saint Jiub wrote:I hesitate to call it Final, because all of this is pending playtesting, but I'd definitely call it our "working list". That is, assume those are the skills we're working with when you create new content.

You're correct, of course. Until playtesting nothing will really be final, but until then this will be our working list, unless someone has any further suggestions.
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Khundakar on Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:58 am

Not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere, but languages à la Daggerfall might be a good thing to add to the list of basic skills. All characters could by default have basic fluency in Cyrodiilic unless they're an Ashlander or something and haven't had very much contact with the Empire. Most characters would probably be fluent in the language(s) of their race and of their nationality: Dunmer would know Dunmeri and be able to read Daedric script, Altmer would know Aldmeris, Khajiit would know Ta'Agra, etc. Of course, a Khajiit born into slavery in Tear who has never stepped foot in Elsweyr would probably be more familiar with Dunmeri than with Ta'Agra. Maybe you would get basic Cyrodiilic for free if born within Imperial territory, a bonus to the most commonly spoken language of your race, and a bonus to the most commonly spoken language of your culture? So an Altmer born and raised in Vivec by Altmer parents from Summerset would get Cyrodiilic for free, and bonuses to learning Aldmeris and Dunmeri.

Profession could give bonuses to learning other languages, especially obscure or dead ones. So a mystic might be more familiar with Aldmeris and Ehlnofex, an archaeologist might know more about Ayleidic or Dwemeri, a Daedra worshiper might know Daedric and the language of the Dremora, a ranger might know Spriggan or Giantish, etc. The obscure or profession-specific languages might be prestige skills like Necromancy that you either can't start out with or need to specialize in during character creation.

Oh, and speaking of prestige skills, there are a ton of skills, abilities, and types of magic that aren't covered by the in-game skills and spells, or only briefly mentioned anywhere. Maormeri snake magic, thu'um, Daedric ritual summoning, Skaal nature magic, tonal architecture, sword-singing, Khajiit martial arts, whatever the hell the Ka'Po'Tun do to become dragons, etc. For now we should probably stick to making rules for the stuff that's relatively common in Morrowind, namely necromancy and Daedric magic, but at some time we might want to consider at least covering the Dwemer-related stuff. Playing a group of Dwemer engineers during the War of the First Council might be fun.

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Dagoth Durr on Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:25 am

Also Vivec penis magic.
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Admin on Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:52 am

Well, I was planning on making Languages their own thing. Instead of being a skill you can select as a primary or secondary and level up like any other skill, it would be a binary system: you either speak it or you don't. It would cost a number of XP points to learn a new language, though, and whether or not you can learn it will be up to the DM. If you're spending all your time adventuring in Elswyr you're sure as hell not gonna dump a bunch of points into a language and suddenly understand Dwemer.
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Dagoth Durr on Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:27 am

Also if you want to be anal being able to speak a language is not at all the same as being able to read it.
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Rainbay on Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:34 am

I was actually thinking about languages when I was at the UESP wiki site looking over stuff for this. I just didn't want to bring it up, because I was unsure how to work it in, as having a seperate skill for every single languange sounds like a pain. However having them as a seperate system that you can choose to spend points in or not sounds good. Some should be harder to learn than others, such as Dwemeri which no one but some fat corprus victum actually speaks. But it could be a dead useful one if you are exploring a Dwemer Ruin and see a sign that tells you to beware of the malfunctuning instant death trap ahead.

Which languages should be included? Dwemeri and Daedic seem obvious, but should we include ones that would allow communication with some of the more intelligent monsters? When a Cliffracer SCREEs at you, scree right back?

EDIT: I also like the Daedric summoning prestige skill. It could be used similar to Necromancy; binding a daedra to this world instead of an undead. As a negative for both, if you fail your check to see if you succeed in the binding or the raising of the dead, it should be not only do you lose the time, materials, magicka, etc. that the ritual would require, but the undead/daedra is raised/summoned anyways... just not bound to you, so you'll have to fight it.

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Saint Jiub on Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:03 pm

Daggerfall "languages" were actually more like "percent chance this thing won't proceed to rape my face immediately upon seeing me"
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Khundakar on Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:35 am

True, though there were two language skills that got cut from the final game that were supposed to be checked when you tried to talk to something, Wild Elf and Faerie. It's hard to say if that meant you could actually talk to a Wild Elf or Faerie or if the skills did something else, since there are no Wild Elves or Faeries in Daggerfall, but it seems that would be the most obvious use for the skills.

Actually, having both types of skills might work well. For example, a scout might invest a few points into Nix-Hound or Cliffracer which, while not making those creatures completely passive, on a successful check might at least lower their aggression. Maybe even to the whole party. At higher levels you could start to be able to actually communicate, the way an Ashlander Guar herder would with his. . . whatever the hell you call a group of Guar. Flock? A flock of Guar just doesn't sound right, but whatever. It could be a good way to make ranger types more useful to the party while simultaneously lowering the number of annoying creature attacks. That way we can keep the Cliffracers as ever-present as they were in the game without forcing players into a fight every five feet.

As far as actual languages, Cyrodiilic, Dunmeri, and Dwemeri definitely. I don't see a need for a separate Daedric script skill since it's really just a set of replacement characters for English. Aldmeris too, since the game mentions a number of books are written in Aldmeris, so the language must be at least somewhat prevalent in Morrowind.

As far as the actual game mechanics go, Admin's suggestion sounds good to me. Having a level or two above "learned" for a few languages might be good though. I'm thinking a separation of languages into categories might be a good idea. "Common" languages would be Cyrodiilic, Nordic, Dunmeri, etc. Modern languages. You would only need one point in those to be able to speak and read them. "Uncommon" languages would be dead or special languages like Dwemeri, Ehlnofex, or Daedric. Learning those would take more effort/EXP since you can't just buy a book on conversational Dremora or ask a Dwemer what the characters in Divine Metaphysics read as. Finally you'd have "Beast" language skills that would work like Daggerfall's langaues. Beast languages could have skill perks that, at higher levels, could give you the ability to give simple commands to non-hostile creatures.

Oh, and I don't think there's a single "Daedric" spoken language. In Oblivion at least, the Dremora, the Golden Saints, and the Dark Seducers all seem to have their own languages. Having separate language skills for each type of sentient Daedra would mean a lot of skills though. Maybe we could have all the Daedric-related skills linked? So using the in-game Conjuration skill to summon a bunch of Dremora would help both your Daedric Summoning skill, and your Dremora language skill. I assume Dremora aren't telepathic and you'd need to actually give them orders, so by regularly summoning them you would probably pick up a few words of their language. You would still need to know the proper rituals to actually make use of any Daedric Summoning skill though.

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Dagoth Durr on Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:03 am

Are cliffracers and guar intelligent?

I think Aldmeris should be the latin of this universe. All the really old "scientific" (read: magical research) and historical documents would be in that tongue.
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Dagoth Durr on Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:55 am

Something just occurred to me, but it may be to anal an idea:

Do we want to maybe break the survival skill into survival for different regions and climates? A Dunmer that knows all about survival in the ash wastes might not know shit about the alpine regions of the Wrothgarian Mountains in High Rock.
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Khundakar on Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:00 am

Oh right, all of the creatures that had language skills in Daggerfall were at least semi-intelligent. The only animal in Morrowind that's ever described as having any intelligence is the Guar, so I guess beast languages wouldn't really work. Maybe it could still work if we consolidated all the beast languages into a single skill? If we do end up incorporating survival skills, it could fit as one of those.

And yes, Aldmeris is sort of the Latin of Nirn. The Altmer explored most of Tamriel before the age of men, which is why the names of many places and peoples are Aldmeris words. Same goes for magical terms, since they were more or less responsible for what would eventually become modern magic and alchemy. The really, really old stuff would probably be written in Ehlnofex though. Things like ancient grimoires and religious books. The distinction between Aldmeris and Ehlnofex isn't very clear however. Personally, I think Ehlnofex is to Aldmeris as Old or Classic Latin is to Vulgar. It's not a perfect comparison though.

Edit: Oh, and for now let's just keep the survival skill apply universally to all climates. Later on, once we get the basics of the skill worked out, we can think about making separate skills for swamps, tundras, ashlands, etc. Oh, not to mention outer planes and Daedric realms.

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Rainbay on Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:58 am

Yes, I agree that it is best to keep things simple, as we are just in the begining stages of forming this. We still don't even have melee combat down for god's sake. Langauge can probably be put on hold for a while.

I support the idea of a beast language, however. Perhaps we could have it allow you to at one rank automatically calm beasts under a certain level, and the next will allow command of beasts under a certain level, as far as how we can consider it to actually be functioning numbers wise.

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Dagoth Durr on Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:14 am

I thought that was an exclusively Bosmer thing?
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Rainbay on Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:25 pm

Dagoth Durr wrote:I thought that was an exclusively Bosmer thing?

Like cannibalism?

Seriously though, you're right, foolish me.

EDIT: Cannibalism and obnoxiousness! Can't forget that second part.

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Dagoth Durr on Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:40 pm

I've never liked how the depiction of the Bosmer in the games is so totally different from how they're presented in the lore.
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Rainbay on Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:43 pm

I think the games play off Bosmers as a joke that Bethesda is totally in on. I mean, Fargoth? The Annoying Fan or whatever his name was? The bosmer with 700 luck from Tribunal? That crazy paranoid one?

The only time I've seen Bosmer that resemble the way they do in the lore were ones added by mods. Perhaps it's the air, air outside of their home province makes them go native?

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Saint Jiub on Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:23 pm

Seen any elves? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA
Get out of here, Sheogorath!
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Re: Various Skills

Post  Rainbay on Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:02 pm

I think we should forget about working on ADVANCED SKILLS for the time being, as they are more of icing on the cake. Not much point if you don't have a cake, and just eating the icing straight, no matter how tasty, is also pathetic and disgusting.

We already have a pretty good list of ADVANCED SKILLS and an idea how they would work. That is plenty for the time being, until we actually iron out the main skills. We still haven't even begun to discuss how the more noncombat skills would work. Oh, sure, we have a basic idea of what the skills do, but we need to get more specifics and nail it down. What applications could each skill give?

-----------------------------

One idea for survival would be harvesting supplies from plants, animals and such. To actually determine if you manage to harvest, we could have the formula be
(Survival) - (difficulty of harvesting that type of item)
So harvesting a kwarma cuttle from a forager is pretty simple, difficulty of only 5 or so. A daedra heart though would be much trickier, with a difficulty of 50, perhaps.

Another possible use is to use survivial instead of alchemy in determining how effective it is to eat base ingrediants that haven't been mixed into potions. Perhaps we could make it 50/50, with each giving half the bonus.

Any other ideas? I'll post more if they come to me.

We still have pleeenty of other skills left as well.

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Re: Various Skills

Post  Dagoth Durr on Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:21 pm

Survival has a lot of potential applications. How specific and realistic do we want to make things? Should it affect the ability to hunt? Find food or water? Build improvised shelters? Start fires?

Another more gamey idea: survival could provide a bonus to stealth when in wild environments maybe?
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Re: Various Skills

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