On the subject of weapons

Let's play with numbers! Assuming that the average new character is going to have 30-40 hit points, I've thought about doing weapons like this (value in the parentheses is attack bonus):
Dagger 1d6 (20)
Short sword 1d8 (15)
Long sword 1d10 (10)
Axe 1d12 (0)
Mace 1d12 (0)
2H sword 2d10 (-10)
2H axe 2d12 (-20)
2H warhammer 2d12 (-20)
These are first tier weapons (iron and chitin stuff) balanced against first tier armor DR (fur, leather, chitin, chain, bonemold, iron, steel, silver). Better tier weapons will have damage bonuses in order to keep up with DR of armor of their tier and to display superiority against DR of lower tier armor. I'm still not satisfied with numbers, and whether armor DR will depend on the skill (because it involves multiplication with very small numbers). Ability bonus of 5 is used for balancing.

I didn't list spears and ranged weapons because I don't know how we're going to do them yet; basic melee stuff was rather straightforward.

But first... how do you like this? Are weapons okay like this?

Slotha Sil wrote:Weapon stats from D&D

As I mentioned in the combat thread, this is otherwise a purely d10 system, and using every other die type purely for the sake of weapon damage values seems somewhat strange at the very least. I also would like to remind everyone again that weapons in Morrowind have different chopping, slicing, and stabbing damage, and that's something I'd like to see brought in here.

Outlander wrote:

Slotha Sil wrote:Weapon stats from D&D

As I mentioned in the combat thread, this is otherwise a purely d10 system, and using every other die type purely for the sake of weapon damage values seems somewhat strange at the very least. I also would like to remind everyone again that weapons in Morrowind have different chopping, slicing, and stabbing damage, and that's something I'd like to see brought in here.

Oh god, that is going to be such a pain to calculate and make everything hellishly complex. Perhaps we should just assume people have "always attack the best way" turned on in options?

Outlander wrote:

Slotha Sil wrote:Weapon stats from D&D

As I mentioned in the combat thread, this is otherwise a purely d10 system, and using every other die type purely for the sake of weapon damage values seems somewhat strange at the very least. I also would like to remind everyone again that weapons in Morrowind have different chopping, slicing, and stabbing damage, and that's something I'd like to see brought in here.

What Rainbay said. I can easily adapt weapons to use d10+thingies, but making three damage stats for each weapon for no apparent reason (if your axe does good chopping damage, you're not going to push enemies with it) would be too much.

Don't forget we can use the d5 as well as the d10, specifically for tiny weapons like daggorz

Saint Jiub wrote:Don't forget we can use the d5 as well as the d10, specifically for tiny weapons like daggorz

Really no point. d10-5 (min 1) sounds about right for a chitin dagger.

but we can use the d5 as an intermediary, for instance, between d10 and 2d10, or as a bonus thanks to Armorer improvements. It's a way to use multiple types of dice without breaking the "d10s only" rule.

Having put more thought into it, I agree that there's really no gameplay reason to have different damage values...

UNLESS! Different attack types do different damage types. You would have multiple values for each weapon, only weapons that could conceivably be used effectively in multiple manners. A longsword, for instance, could do Cutting damage with a swing, or Piercing damage with a thrust. Sure, the thrust is weaker, but maybe Piercing damage that gets through armor is multiplied, as in GURPS, or just has a bonus critical chance? For another example, it's rather hard to swing a claymore in a tight hallway, so maybe you'd be limited to stabbing with it until you switch to a different weapon. A swinging attack with a pole-arm could conceivably hit multiple opponents, which would be effective with a Naginata or Halberd. With a regular spear it could be useful, but simply unable to match the catastrophic internal organ damage against a single opponent a thrust could.

*EDIT* This would also work well with the "Fatigue spent = Damage dealt" sort of thing I suggested in Combat thread. A sword wielder could swing for 10-24 Cut damage, or thrust for 3-8 Peirce to conserve energy while keeping the pressure on with quick attacks. Perhaps he could even pommel bash someone for 1-5 Blunt for a really fast, small strike.

Outlander wrote:Having put more thought into it, I agree that there's really no gameplay reason to have different damage values...

UNLESS! Different attack types do different damage types. You would have multiple values for each weapon, only weapons that could conceivably be used effectively in multiple manners. A longsword, for instance, could do Cutting damage with a swing, or Piercing damage with a thrust. Sure, the thrust is weaker, but maybe Piercing damage that gets through armor is multiplied, as in GURPS, or just has a bonus critical chance? For another example, it's rather hard to swing a claymore in a tight hallway, so maybe you'd be limited to stabbing with it until you switch to a different weapon. A swinging attack with a pole-arm could conceivably hit multiple opponents, which would be effective with a Naginata or Halberd. With a regular spear it could be useful, but simply unable to match the catastrophic internal organ damage against a single opponent a thrust could.

*EDIT* This would also work well with the "Fatigue spent = Damage dealt" sort of thing I suggested in Combat thread. A sword wielder could swing for 10-24 Cut damage, or thrust for 3-8 Peirce to conserve energy while keeping the pressure on with quick attacks. Perhaps he could even pommel bash someone for 1-5 Blunt for a really fast, small strike.

So, in short, each weapon having one or more "special" attacks that deal more damage or do stuff but cost fatigue to perform? I guess having light attack and heavy attack would be keeping to the spirit of the game, what with damage and fatigue cost being dependent of how long you keep the mouse button pressed.

Here's an idea for weapons. Since there are no difference between heavy and light weapons, we can just set it up in tiers.
Chitin
Iron
Steel/Silver (they are the same strength, but silver can hit magical enemies and such)
Dwemer
Glass
Ebony
Daedric

We use strength to determine damage rolls. Perhaps strength/10 or /20 and some other jazz based on weapon type. We leave weapon quality completely out of the equation. Then, after the equation is complete, we use the tiers to multiply damage. So with chitin, if you were going to hit 10 damage, you'd hit 10 damage. Iron would raise this to 20. Steel and silver 30, dwemer 40, glass 50, ebony 60 and Daedric 70. This simplifies the whole process greatly.

One way to decide how the different weapons deal different damage could be to just change the strength/# depending on the weapon used. Perhaps a big huge warhammer gets a strength/5. A lowly dagger however gets strength/20. A long sword might be strength/15 or some such. We round up to the nearest whole number when damage is calculated. But even though the Dagger only has a strength/20 damage max or some such, it has a much greater chance to hit so you'll actually be doing about the same damage as that monster hammer.

We might need to adjust the way Hp works for this and raise the max, we will see in time.

I just think this greatly simplifies the process of assigning each weapon an individual stats, you can just check the type of weapon and the material it is made of and get the stats automatically.

Any thoughts on this idea?

Continuing this idea, this is how I think it could be applied to ranged weapons, which we haven't discussed at all besides acknowledging that they exist.
Because ranged weapons have two parts, the bow/crossbow and the arrow/bolt, the way they are calculated would be divided between the two. The bonus to hit would come from the material the bow is made of, and damage would come from the arrow. So a daedric bow or crossbow would have an excellent chance to hit the enemy, but the damage would be decided mostly by the ammo used.

Throwing on the other hand, has no bows. The way I suggest making this work for thown weapons is to make the material used decide the damage, and the type of weapon thrown decide the chance to hit. So A throwing star is very easy to hit with, but wouldn't deal as much damage as a throwing axe. The list in my mind going from easiest to hit with and weakest to hardest to hit with but strongest would be:
Throwing stars
Darts
Throwing knives
Javlins
Throwing axes

How does this idea sound? It's not perfect, I know, but it's a start at least.

Switch javelins and throwing knives. Throwing a knife is really fucking hard and requires a pretty specific range between you and the target.

I'd also like for stats or skill to have some influence on your chance to hit with ranged weapons.

Otherwise it all sounds good.

Dagoth Durr wrote:Switch javelins and throwing knives. Throwing a knife is really fucking hard and requires a pretty specific range between you and the target.

I'd also like for stats or skill to have some influence on your chance to hit with ranged weapons.

Otherwise it all sounds good.

Oh, I figured that stats and things would take effect with the ranged weapons. This is just the BONUS to hit. So you calculate your chance to hit with attribute and the skill, and this adds in afterwards. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

Also, I don't know that much about different types of thrown objects in real life, so I mostly went by guessing and things I thought would make sense.

I like Javlin being after throwing knives, because throwing knives are smaller and probably easier to handle than a Large Javlin, but no doubt weaker as well.

I've read a bit about it and I think that while a javelin is bigger and bulkier, it's streamlined and it's a fairly simple motion to throw it and keep the point on the target.

A knife, though? You have to be able to figure out how many rotations it's gonna make between you and the target. Most knife throwers can only perfect a specific distance, go beyond or within it and they'll start missing. That's why javelins and darts and such are pretty common military implements in most iron age and below cultures, whereas throwing axes and throwing knives are pretty unlikely to be standardized equipment.

However, one advantage of the throwing knife over the javelin: it can be easily concealed. So thieves would probably enjoy them.

And yeah I misunderstood the bonuses, sorry.

Dagoth Durr wrote:I've read a bit about it and I think that while a javelin is bigger and bulkier, it's streamlined and it's a fairly simple motion to throw it and keep the point on the target.

A knife, though? You have to be able to figure out how many rotations it's gonna make between you and the target. Most knife throwers can only perfect a specific distance, go beyond or within it and they'll start missing. That's why javelins and darts and such are pretty common military implements in most iron age and below cultures, whereas throwing axes and throwing knives are pretty unlikely to be standardized equipment.

However, one advantage of the throwing knife over the javelin: it can be easily concealed. So thieves would probably enjoy them.

Hmmm, you make a very good point. Do you have any way to standardize this with numbers? I just get the feeling that throwing knives being weaker and harder to use than javlins would make them not very useful, with the only bonus being that they have lower encumberance, and could be concealed more easily, although I don't know how we could display that second trait in game functions.

You could also feasibly carry a lot more of them, while still keeping them concealed.

Like I said, they should be the weapon of thieves and assassins, not real soldiers.

A suggestion, we could make weapons just deal damage based on dividing strength. For so a dagger of chitin quality would deal up to, say, strength/25. A powerful but inaccurate warhammer might have strength/5. The different tiers of materials would decide how much the actual damage from this formula would end up being, with each one mulitplying it as I outlined about. Here are my ideas for how much each weapon would divide strength.

dagger: /25
shortsword: /20
longsword: /15
Claymore: /10
1handed axe: /20
mace: /15
2h axe: /10
warhammer: /5
spear: /15
The resulting number is multiplied by the weapon tier, and that's the max hit of that weapon.

Of course, these are just suggestions. And the numbers aren't that great. However I'm still at a loss for how damage is going to be calculated, so I'd like to throw something out there. All this division is pretty nasty though.

Yeah but hopefully people won't be changing weapons on an hourly basis.

Dagoth Durr wrote:Yeah but hopefully people won't be changing weapons on an hourly basis.

And their strength wouldn't change except at the end of adventures, if what I have understood from how leveling will work is correct.

We could make either the weapon type or the material a straight + or -, to ease the calculatory load.

Outlander wrote:We could make either the weapon type or the material a straight + or -, to ease the calculatory load.

True. How do you recomend it be handled? How much for each tier?

Rainbay wrote:

Outlander wrote:We could make either the weapon type or the material a straight + or -, to ease the calculatory load.

True. How do you recomend it be handled? How much for each tier?

Yes, let's hear this. It is relevant to my interests.

Maybe only go with pluses, though. We're using a d10 slightly modified by strength (and skill?) for damage basis, so it doesn't exactly need reduction.

Weapon damage. We haven't decided on speed and/or fatigue cost, and weight and value will remain the same as in the game, so I'm not typing those.
Axes
Chitin axe 1d10+1
Iron war axe 2d10+1
Steel war axe 2d10+2
Silver war axe 2d10
Dwemer war axe 3d10+1
Glass war axe 3d10 +1
Ebony war axe 3d10+2
Daedric war axe 4d10+2
Orcish battleaxe 3d10
Nordic battleaxe 3d10+1
Iron battleaxe 3d10+2
Steel battleaxe 3d10+4
Dwemer battleaxe 4d10+2
Daedric battleaxe 8d10
Blunt
Chitin club 1d5
Iron club 1d5+1
Steel club 1d5+2
Spiked club 1d5+2
Dreugh club 1d5+2
Daedric club 1d5+6
Iron mace 1d10+1
Steel mace 1d10+2
Dwemer mace 2d10+2
Ebony mace 3d10+1
Daedric mace 3d10+2
Iron warhammer 2d10+2
Steel warhammer 2d10+4
Dwemer warhammer 3d10+4
Orcish warhammer 3d10+2
Daedric warhammer 7d10
Wooden staff 1d5+1
Steel staff 1d5+2
Silver staff 1d5+2
Dreugh staff 1d10
Ebony staff 1d10+4
Daedric staff 2d10

Long blades
Iron saber 1d10+4
Iron broadsword 1d10+2
Iron longsword 1d10+1
Steel saber 2d10
Steel broadsword 1d10+4
Steel longsword 1d10+2
Nordic broadsword 1d10+6
Steel katana 2d10
Silver longsword 1d10+2
Glass longsword 2d10
Ebony broadsword 2d10+4
Ebony longsword 3d10+2
Daedric katana 4d10
Daedric longsword 4d10+2
Iron claymore 2d10+1
Steel claymore 2d10+3
Nordic claymore 3d10
Steel daikatana 2d10+5
Silver claymore 4d10+1
Daedric claymore 6d10+2
Daedric daikatana 6d10
Marksman (are we dividing bows and crossbows?)
Chitin short bow 1d10
Short bow 1d10+3
Long bow 2d10
Steel longbow 2d10+3
Bonemold longbow 3d10
Daedric longbow 5d10
Steel crossbow 2d10+5
Dwemer crossbow 3d10+3
Thrown
Iron throwing knife 1d5
Chitin throwing knife 1d5
Steel throwing knife 1d5+1
Steel dart 1d5+2
Steel throwing star 1d5+2
Silver dart 1d5+1
Silver throwing star 1d5+1
Glass throwing knife 1d5+3
Glass throwing star 1d5+3
Ebony dart 1d10+1
Ebony throwing star 1d10+1
Daedric dart 1d10+2

Short blades
Chitin dagger 1d5
Iron dagger 1d5
Chitin shortsword 1d5+2
Iron tanto 1d5+1
Steel dagger 1d5+2
Iron shortsword 1d5+5
Iron wakizashi 1d10+4
Steel tanto 1d10+3
Silver dagger 1d5
Steel shortsword 1d10+3
Steel wakizashi 1d5+7
Silver shortsword 1d5+5
Dwemer shortsword 1d10+7
Glass dagger 1d10+5
Daedric dagger 1d10+2
Ebony shortsword 1d10+10
Daedric tanto 1d10+9
Daedric shortsword 2d10+6
Daedric wakizashi 3d10+5
Spears
Chitin spear 1d10+2
Iron spear 1d10+5
Iron spear (long) 2d10+2
Steel spear 1d10+7
Iron halberd 2d10+2
Steel halberd 2d10+4
Silver spear 2d10+3
Dwemer spear 2d10+6
Dwemer halberd 2d10+8
Ebony spear 3d10+2
Glass halberd 3d10+5
Daedric spear 4d10
oh god my back hurts the columns are eating my eyes

I've pretty much copied best damage spans for each weapon (an OCD sufferer will notice lack of "imperial" weapons, which were left out because they were exactly the same as iron weapons) using 1d10+x, taking into account both min and max damage. For weapons with similar stats (longsword and katana for example) I favored the weapon that has overall better stats. I didn't use subtractions because of potential "situations" with min damage and armor DR, when I manage to crack it.