Various Skills

**Admin** Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:56 pm

Here we'll figure out the exact skill list, as well as figure out what everything does. Needless to say, this is pretty important.

LessRudeScrib Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:30 pm

Did we ever hammer out skill advancement, or is that still on the table?

Rainbay Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:55 pm

Hardly Hammered at all. If you have any suggestions, lay them out.

**Admin** Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:13 pm

Well, here's my proposed list:

Acrobatics (this includes jumping and climbing)
Hand-to-Hand
Athletics (this includes swimming and running)
Mercantile
Streetwise
Etiquette
Crossbows
Archery
Throwing
Security
Sneak
Backstab (tentatively)
Axe
Spear
Blunt
Long Blade
Short Blade
Heavy Armor
Medium Armor
Unarmored
Armorer
Destruction
Alteration
Illusion
Mysticism
Conjuration
Alchemy
Enchant
Necromancy (Tentatively)

Hexx Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:19 pm

Let's refine them into specific lists for ease of use:

Combat (weapons and armor)
Magic (Derp)
Stealth (sneak, backstab etc)
Social (languages, ettiquette etc)

Rainbay Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:28 pm

It's easy to place them into Combat, Magic and Stealth, but what besides Streetwise, Etiquette and Mercantile would go in Social? Or are you just discussing ease of grouping, not "Specializations"?

Hexx Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:32 pm

Ease of grouping for now, so we have them in easy-to-tackle format instead of one long list.

Outlander Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:57 pm

I think I understand the purpose of having a backstab skill, but it seems like it might be clunky in gameplay. If you want to sneak attack someone that's already a sneaking roll and a weapon skill roll. Does it really do much good to add a third roll there?

Speaking of Sneak, is that going to be an opposed roll? There's really no "perception" mechanism in this game so far. Does a successful Sneak roll mean you are invisible to everyone, unconditionally?

How does Necromancy differ mechanically from Conjuration?

**Admin** Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:06 pm

Sneak is opposed by Sneak in the games, although we should probably incorporate some form of Perception, either as a skill or a stat. I'm really on the fence about Backstab, and I'd just as soon get rid of it and have sneak attacks be a function of sneak; treating it as an automatic critical hit if you get in a successful attack while stealthed. Necromancy would be different from Conjuration in that it governs the actual creation of permanent undead rather than simply summoning them from... somewhere. We could probably ditch that for now as well and focus on in-game skills, maybe adding more lore-friendly skills after we've created the base game.

Oh, and I've updated the Character Creation page, so go check it out.

Rainbay Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:37 pm

You forgot restoration, that skill is massively important. Also, Thaumaturgy could be another skill, as was discussed in skill synergy. As said before:

Thaumaturgy refers to the School of Thaumaturgy, one of the six avenues of magica study. A Thaumaturgical spell does not change the appearance or structure of a force or object, but can manipulate laws temporarily, as evident in such spells as Levitate and Detection.

Outlander Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:38 pm

Thaumaturgy doesn't sound significantly different from Alteration to me.

LessRudeScrib Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:41 pm

Admin wrote:Sneak is opposed by Sneak in the games, although we should probably incorporate some form of Perception, either as a skill or a stat. I'm really on the fence about Backstab, and I'd just as soon get rid of it and have sneak attacks be a function of sneak; treating it as an automatic critical hit if you get in a successful attack while stealthed. Necromancy would be different from Conjuration in that it governs the actual creation of permanent undead rather than simply summoning them from... somewhere. We could probably ditch that for now as well and focus on in-game skills, maybe adding more lore-friendly skills after we've created the base game.

Oh, and I've updated the Character Creation page, so go check it out.

So necromancy becomes mechanically similar to craft or enchant? (I think in one of the in-game books it mentions using a soulgem to make a bonewalker, but I could be making that up/misremembering).

Outlander Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:47 pm

Why not just Enchant a corpse with a Conjuration spell that summons its former occupant? Same effect, but doesn't require an additional skill that's only useful in that once context.

**Admin** Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:48 pm

That's what I was thinking, yeah. Necromancy would be closer to a crafting skill than actual spells cast in battle. Corpse Preparation I-III deals with that; you can read up on it at the Imperial Library.

LessRudeScrib Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:56 pm

Outlander,
That seems like a roundabout way of doing that. From the computer rules (as found on the UESP):

"Conjuration summons magical items and beings from the outer realms to serve you."

The spell effects of the College of Conjuration include the mental domination of mundane and magical creatures, summoning of otherworldly weapons and armor, and summoning of Daedric or undead servants and powers to serve and protect the caster.

So I suppose it looks like either having necromancy be a craft skill ("spend 1d4 days and x checks making a bonewalker") or just pure Conjuration ("ok, you make your conjuration role and the soul of whatever reanimates that corpse over there"). Although the "enchant a corpse with a conjuration spell" route you mentioned is a good work-around, but I think having a separate Necromancy skill would be a good thing, and give players leeway to create unique characters.

Outlander Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:57 pm

Admin wrote:That's what I was thinking, yeah. Necromancy would be closer to a crafting skill than actual spells cast in battle. Corpse Preparation I-III deals with that; you can read up on it at the Imperial Library.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/corpse_preparation.shtml

Saint Jiub Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:34 pm

What does everyone think of making Necromancy a skill, but not having it synergize, since synergy would force us to either rearrange 7 magic schools into groups of 3 and 4 or add 2 MORE magic schools? Also, Necromancy is kept on the downlow in nearly every province, even where it's not punishable by instagib, so it makes sense that it would be tough to learn, else apprentices would constantly be stumbling across necromancy.

**Admin** Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:36 pm

Sure. Maybe the "core" skills can synergize, but bonus, rarer skills won't. Necromancy, Yokudan Swordmastery, Shouting, and all the other atypical skills that, while rare, still have a place in the universe.

LessRudeScrib Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:39 pm

Would these bonus skills cost more, or somehow be rarer to get? Maybe he prereq skills, so it imposes a cost on the player to take use them? (e.g. to get Necromancy you have to have conjuration as a major or minor skill).

Saint Jiub Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:41 pm

That sounds a pretty good idea to me.

Rainbay Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:58 pm

So we have "Prestige" skills now? Heh.
It's actually a good idea, and I like seeing Thu'um gain at least some entrance into the world.

I suppose Thaumaturgy won't end up being included as a skill then, as it was originally planned. Oh well, This kind of thing happens, but I am rather fond of it.

Thaumaturgy refers to the School of Thaumaturgy, one of the six avenues of magica study. A Thaumaturgical spell does not change the appearance or structure of a force or object, but can manipulate laws temporarily, as evident in such spells as Levitate and Detection.

Saint Jiub Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:21 pm

Thaumaturgy sounds like it overlaps a lot with Alteration, in purpose if not in mechanics.

LessRudeScrib Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:29 pm

I think that's one of the problems with trying to combine the Daggerfall and Morrowind rulesets. It looks like they used different schemes for organizing magic. We should either pick one and run with it, or develop out own. I think that would also help with skill synergy.

Rainbay Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:32 pm

Saint Jiub wrote:Thaumaturgy sounds like it overlaps a lot with Alteration, in purpose if not in mechanics.

Actually, the way it was incorporated in morrowind, and the description of actual Thaum spells makes is sound closer to mysticism, with things like detect spells. They were really broken up into all the other skills.

But yes, I can agree it sticks out a bit and could be absorbed into the other skills for ease of use, although if I can think of new effects for it to be a "prestige" skill, you bet I will bring it up again. To be honest, reason I seem to like it so much is mostly the name. Mmmm... Thaumaturgy...

The fact that I haven't gotten to play an elder scrolls game that included it factors in as well.

Dagoth Durr Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:40 am

Actually, while necromancy is frowned on in most provinces, it's pretty damn common in Morrowind. They just don't call most of what they do (conversing with dead ancestors, crafting bonewalkers and ghost fences, etc) necromancy.

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