Fatigue: Do we or Don't We?

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Post  Admin on Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:48 pm

This is a bit of a tricky subject. The first thing we want to ask ourselves is: should it even be included at all? It's a pretty key element of the games, but in the tabletop it might very well be tedious and annoying to manage rather than provide anything substantial. I've heard some people suggest that we change fatigue to be a bonus rather than a penalty, in that you can "spend" a fatigue point as determined by your Endurance, Agility and Willpower to increase the chances of success on a given roll. Does anyone like that idea? Any suggestions on how to manage this?

EDIT: Alright, finished up here. Fatigue will work as follows: at the end of every combat encounter or strenuous non-combat encounter, every participating character will have to roll at or under his (Willpower + Endurance/2), or else gain one level of fatigue, to a maximum of four levels. Each level will give a -10 penalty on all checks.


Last edited by Admin on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Outlander on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:10 pm

That's how fatigue is managed in GURPS, unless you're being a faggot and using the hardcore hyper-realistic wilderness survival rules, which nobody does... Fatigue is basically a pool you can expend to make you physical actions more awesome. I don't remember exactly, but I think spending a fatigue point translates to a +1 bonus to attack? Anyway, I think a similar system would serve us well here.

The trick is determining how fast it recharges. Do you have to wait 'till you can rest, or do you gain it back slowly during combat? The first could be fairly punishing (which I don't think is bad), and the latter could be a pain in the ass to keep track of.

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Post  Saint Jiub on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:12 pm

Make fatigue VERY limited, probably one-per-encounter, and have it replenished after each session or each adventure. Maybe one fatigue per 10 points of Endurance?
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Post  Admin on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:16 pm

Maybe have it set per adventure, and provides a +10 bonus on rolls. Or, since you're trying to roll under your skill, a -10 bonus on rolls. A fairly small bonus a decent number of times per day. I was thinking the first digits each of Agility, Endurance, and Willpower summed up. So, the height of mortal capacity would be 30 points, and you could only use them per adventure or per session, not per encounter. Or until you rest, but then we would need to make the points more limited.
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Post  Saint Jiub on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:21 pm

There are a few ways we can do this and the choice... is... yours...

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Post  Admin on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:22 pm

That's my sig! Or would be, if it displayed properly.
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Post  Outlander on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:26 pm

So we're dividing fatigue as it was in the PC game by 10, and then saying each point spent gives a +10 to a given skill for that roll? Why not just leave it be and make it 1:1?

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Post  Saint Jiub on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:29 pm

The reason I, personally, am suggesting we keep that number somewhat low is so that you don't have to keep track of up to 300 points of something that's going to keep getting spent.
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Post  Admin on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:31 pm

Outlander wrote:So we're dividing fatigue as it was in the PC game by 10, and then saying each point spent gives a +10 to a given skill for that roll? Why not just leave it be and make it 1:1?

As in, you could choose to expend fatigue in whatever increments you wanted to get the desired bonus? That might work. You could have a few superhuman bursts of exertion every once in a while, or you could ration your energy out slowly and get small but consistent benefits. Hmm.
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Post  Saint Jiub on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:37 pm

Even if we do it at a 1:1 rato instead of 10: , I say we impose limits on how much you can boost any given roll. I don't care how good you are at something, you eventually erach the point where your body or mind can't cope with too much extra effort. There's a big difference between pulling a clever sword trick and slipping under someone's guard on the one hand, and on the other hand pulling an "I am no left-handed!"
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Post  Admin on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:42 pm

That sounds good. We'll need to impose some sort of hard-cap so that you can't expend all your Fatigue in one go to shoot the eye of a cliffracer at night in a blightstorm from halfway across Vvardenfel while your shins are being eaten by Alits.
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Post  Outlander on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:13 pm

Well, "I am not left handed!" is awesome, and would mean you can't spend any extra effort for the rest of the day. Maybe also introduce a penalty for going below certain thresholds? Maybe if you use all your fatigue, you only get a quarter to a half of it back the next day.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:16 pm

What benefit does fatigue actually give us, from a gameplay standpoint? We're talking about bonuses and how to derive it, but does it enhance the game at all?
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Post  Admin on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:18 pm

LessRudeScrib wrote:What benefit does fatigue actually give us, from a gameplay standpoint? We're talking about bonuses and how to derive it, but does it enhance the game at all?

Well, the way we're discussing it know I imagine it to be somewhat similar to Fate Points in Dark Heresy or Rogue trader, if you've played with those systems. You can spend a limited resource to increase your chances of success, much like an enchanted item. Only in this case it's something inherent in the player rather than an external force.
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Post  Rainbay on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:26 pm

Sounds pretty good to me. Sort of like adding spice to make a recipe more delicious, you could expend fatigue to make spells cast more succesfully, or a hit more likely to land. Works better with the word "fatigue" even, which in morrowind is more akin to stamina.

Perhaps you could expend fatigue to boost a skill during a check by up to 20% of that skills current level? I said 20% because it's extremely easy to calculate on the fly. Although people could still be dickish and choose to only expend enough fatigue to boost it up to 19%... How about you can use fatigue, and choose to expend say 30 points to boost success by 20% in an action or 10 points to boost it by 10%. 10% is better if what you are doing is trivial, but if you are facing life or death, the extra fatigue is well spent. Of course, those numbers, like everything here, is not exact.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:37 pm

Admin wrote:
LessRudeScrib wrote:What benefit does fatigue actually give us, from a gameplay standpoint? We're talking about bonuses and how to derive it, but does it enhance the game at all?

Well, the way we're discussing it know I imagine it to be somewhat similar to Fate Points in Dark Heresy or Rogue trader, if you've played with those systems. You can spend a limited resource to increase your chances of success, much like an enchanted item. Only in this case it's something inherent in the player rather than an external force.

I will take a quick browse through the DH/RT rulebooks (haven't had a chance to play them before, sadly) and see if I can come up with anything productive.
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Post  Outlander on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:37 pm

LessRudeScrib wrote:What benefit does fatigue actually give us, from a gameplay standpoint? We're talking about bonuses and how to derive it, but does it enhance the game at all?

The benefit is, pretty much, opportunity within game for more Rule of Cool moments without use of GM Fiat.

Alternately we could set the system up to be so punishing that you really can't do much without expending fatigue, which would mean you'd have to plan combat very strategically.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:44 pm

When does that start to get boggy, though? I can appreciate the rule of cool (and I promise I will read the DH/RT rules before I comment more on mechanics), but using fatigue as a resource (I think it was in the archived suptg thread someone talked about fatigue determining actions per round or something like that) seems like it might get clunky.
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Post  Admin on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:45 pm

Outlander wrote:The benefit is, pretty much, opportunity within game for more Rule of Cool moments without use of GM Fiat.

Alternately we could set the system up to be so punishing that you really can't do much without expending fatigue, which would mean you'd have to plan combat very strategically.

That second idea isn't really speaking to me, to be honest. I guess it might work in more "hardcore" groups, but I can't see that being a good idea for most people.
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Post  Rainbay on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:48 pm

You know, using fatigue to temporarily boost a skill could mean we could get rid of skill synergy. Now, I still like skill synergy, but fatigue could be used in the same purpose synergy was origional though up for: for when you only have 5 in a skill you need to use, to help boost it somewhat.

You want to fight someone with a different weapon, but only have a weapon you aren't great in. Expend some of your fatigue and increase what level your skill functions at during the fight. Since it would raise as a percent of the origional skill, it still would be weaker than expending fatigue on one of your main skills, but it would be something. Also, since higher percents take increasingly higher amounts of fatigue in comparison, you have to be careful about how you use it. Increase a skill 30%, but not have much fatigue to fall back on if you need it later? Or in this dangerous fight expend some on attacking, and some on blocking and hope you can survive three rounds rather then ending it in one?

THE. CHOICE. IS. YOURS.

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Post  Outlander on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:54 pm

I'm not attached at all to the "HARDCORE MODE", Admin. Just throwing it out there. Seems like the brainstorming stage anyway.

Exactly how temporary a boost are you thinking of, Rainbay? I was imagining a single roll, but the way you're talking about seems like you're thinking of a longer period?

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Post  Admin on Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:57 pm

Rainbay wrote:THE. CHOICE. IS. YOURS.

Hmm. I'll have to sleep on it. These are all pretty good ideas, and while I like the fatigue idea more than the skill synergy idea, both are clever and easy to incorporate. Heck, we could even use both in some capacity.
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Post  Rainbay on Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:10 pm

Outlander wrote:I'm not attached at all to the "HARDCORE MODE", Admin. Just throwing it out there. Seems like the brainstorming stage anyway.

Exactly how temporary a boost are you thinking of, Rainbay? I was imagining a single roll, but the way you're talking about seems like you're thinking of a longer period?

No, I was thinking single roll too. You have to pick how much you use before the roll, of course.

Also, depending on how much each % boost uses, perhaps we should change how fatigue is calculated, making it rarer? Maybe:

(strength/2)+(Willpower/2)+(agility/2)

Or maybe speed instead. And we make Hp just a function of Endurance, like Magicka is just a function of Intelligence. Thus Fatigue is governed by one of each of the three main "classes" of Combat, Magic, and Stealth's main stats.

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Post  LessRudeScrib on Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:22 pm

I like the idea of making fatigue equal across the classes (or rather, not dependent on any one "class" attribute).
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Post  Rainbay on Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:38 pm

This also makes sure that people aren't swimming in extra fatigue. At normal max of 100 in all three stats, you would only have 150 fatigue. More can be gained from magic and alchemy and enchantments and such of course, but those are temporary.

Also, we should make fatigue costs have marginal growth. So a 10% boost (%, not point) would cost only 10 fatigue, still a reasonably respectable amount. But a 20% boost would cost 25 fatigue. 30% would cost 40 or 50, and so on and so forth. Remember early in game, 10 is a rather large part of your fatigue, and even late, 40 or 50 is huge.

EDIT: On second thought, Point is prolly better than %. % may be less overpowering with the higher level skills that you are actually good in, but point would actually help when you are low in skill at say, 5. 10% of 5 is only 1, and even then you'd have to round up. Although you could always have items and such that fortify skills.

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